Why I think there is going to be a Hatch SI

athensbobcat06

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Fellow forum members,

I'm currently in the market for a new car and one of my top picks to consider is the new civic, more importantly the hatchback. Of course like anything else, I'm ready to own something with a little more power and style. While the stock 1.5T in the Sport trim is likely to be fun, I've been anxiously awaiting the possibility of the SI version in hatchback body style. Of course, fingers crossed, in a few weeks Honda will let us all know what they plan on doing with this generations SI, including body-styles and power, etc. The other night I was checking out this very forum and came to a realization that there might be a good reason to believe that the hatchback will indeed come in SI flavor.

Please allow me to humor you and fuel more to the fire that is the SI rumor bucket. I think it's fair to say that the SI will come with the fancy new center mount exhaust as seen in the spy shots of the couple test mule recently. The thing that caught my eye is that the cutout in the lower bumper fascia for said exhaust is pretty darn identical (size and shape) to the cutout in the Sport trim of the hatchback. Look at its width compared to the license plate in both pictures below. Obviously the rear bumper fascia is a completely different part between the couple and hatch, but it does raise an eyebrow to the fact that at least for the bottom portion/exhaust cutout, they are very very similar in design. Seems to me that Honda will use the same fascia for both the Sport trim's dual round exhaust as well as for the single SI exhaust tip. You can see how much extra space the Sport's dual tip exhaust leaves around the shroud. Seems like they'd have that cutout a lot closer to the exhaust if the Sport is going to be the only "performance" trim for the hatch. Just my two cents

Feel free to agree/disagree with me, all comments are welcome.

Honda Civic 10th gen Why I think there is going to be a Hatch SI 2017-Honda-Civic-Si-Prototype-rear-end-02

Honda Civic 10th gen Why I think there is going to be a Hatch SI cb89241587b3e8fcba13f8aa566
 

VarmintCong

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Good eye, though it's possible they had the bumper for the Sport and just used it for the Si or vice versa.

To me the best reason there will be a hatch is that Honda thinks the Type R should only be in hatch form, yet they think we don't need a hatch Si? That would make no sense. And Type R production is low anyway so having a hatch Si won't cut into Type R sales or anything.
 

ayau

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The shroud is cut that wide on the hatch to make room for the Type R's triple exhaust.

Honda Civic 10th gen Why I think there is going to be a Hatch SI honda-civic-type-r-america-5
 

DavidJBrooks

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As I've said before, there are 1000 reasons to expect an Si hatch, but there are evidently one or more people who overheard official Honda scuttlebutt saying there won't be one. JeffX over at TOV is convinced beyond doubt that there will be no Si, and he's typically got good info, but he hasn't said why he feels that way

Apart from that third-hand information (which doesn't seem publicly available, nor has anyone ever told us what they actually said, to the best of my ability to find), though, every single indicator (and logic and business sense) points to a hatch Si joining the coupe and probably a sedan.

  • From an engineering standpoint, we know an Si hatch is simple swap job now that we're on a global platform; if the powertrain fits in the coupe and sedan, it will likely be a simple bolt-on for the hatch. From a logistics standpoint, there are already boxes of Civic parts going from the US to Swindon to build the regular hatches that then get shipped back to the US, so changing the allocation of bits and pieces is simple accounting. The existence of the Sport trim hatch is even more evidence in favor of an Si hatch, since we now know that all of the Si hatch bodywork already exists and has been approved for USDM. Only relatively minor logistics issues and marketing decisions would stop an Si hatch. Honda doesn't have to do any more engineering, doesn't need any new supply chains, doesn't need to do any more federalization for USDM.
  • We have insiders and big-name car mags who - after talking with Honda - assert unequivocally that an Si hatch is coming. They use wiggle words ("the hatch should follow", "will probably be followed by", etc), and they could be wrong, but in the absence of any solid information to the contrary, it holds weight.
  • The "hot hatch" is the proverbial puddle of ooze that this entire segment crawled out from, and offering a hatch without offering an attainable, enthusiast-oriented daily-driver hatch would be a huge oversight. There is not much overlap between the markets for an Si hatch and a CTR, and I do not think Honda is concerned about eating into the CTR's market - especially in the US.
  • Honda has never official confirmed what to expect, but did say somewhere something along the lines of "the Si will continue to be offered in the body styles it has been in the past." This appears to be clear support of a coupe, sedan and hatch Si. Were it not for this single statement, I would go so far as to say there will be only a coupe and a hatch, and no sedan, as the sedan is the body style that I think has the least evidence (we've seen no evidence of a sedan with Si body work, but we've seen both coupes and hatches with Si bodywork).

Anyhow, just my $0.02, once again. ;)
 

DavidJBrooks

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The shroud is cut that wide on the hatch to make room for the Type R's triple exhaust.
CTR has a similar, but not identical, rear bumper. The cut-out is a different shape and size than the sport hatch bumper. OP is right that the cut out in the sport hatch bumper looks designed to accomodate that wedge-shaped wide outlet, whereas the CTR cutout clearly has rounded edges designed for round outlets.

Honda Civic 10th gen Why I think there is going to be a Hatch SI EU-2017-Honda-Civic-5-Hatchcarscoops


If you look even more closely (for instance, at the official Honda pics from the brochure), you can see that the outlet surround (with the horizontal "vents"-looking stuff) is a separate piece than probably be left off and/or replaced to get an opening very similar in size and shape to the opening of rear bumper of the coupe mule.
 


serif

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Allow me to rephrase my argument again. Based on spy shots, here's what we know for certain are the differences between the base Civic coupe and the Si coupe:
  • front bumper cover (same as hatch Sport)
  • rear bumper cover (similar to hatch Sport)
  • exhaust configuration (similar to hatch; different finisher)
  • wheels (same as hatch Sport)
  • interior trim (door panels, stitching, etc)
  • dash trim in CF (same as hatch Sport)
  • seats
  • Sport button
These are all but confirmed as we've seen them. Things like suspension and engine are yet to be confirmed, but we can assume they're different, displacement notwithstanding. So the differences between the Sport hatch and the Si can be assumed as:
  • exhaust finisher
  • interior trim
  • seats
  • sport button
  • engine
  • suspension
These are both not enough to visually differentiate the Si from the Sport, yet major enough to cause logistical concerns. We're talking about almost an entirely different interior, engine, and suspension having to be supplied to a factory on a different continent for a single trim for a single export market. Meanwhile, all other Civics for this market are domestically produced and will share these (probably also domestically produced) components across two body styles. Again, I'd love to be wrong, but the Si hatch just doesn't seem realistic.
 

DavidJBrooks

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Based on your analysis - and with all due respect - I'm still not seeing the major difficulties.
  • Suspension would probably mix CTR and sport hatch components, meaning all the bits are already in England.
  • Engines are already shipped from the US to Swindon, so no issue there.
  • Interior trim, exhaust finisher and sport button are penny pieces, and once again, between the CTR, the Sport and a handful of bits sent from the US and/or sourced locally in England, those are covered.
We're basically down to shipping seats (and the LSD, if the 10G gets it - assuming it's a different unit from what the CTR gets) over from the US or setting up local manufacturing - neither of which are a huge issue. After all, where are the current seats for the Swindon-built hatches coming from now, and why would it by that big (or expensive) of a deal for them to build three different seats (base, Si, CTR) than just two (base, CTR)? How hard would it be to pack a box of LSDs next to the box of engines that are already going to Swindown? We know the line can support installing them.

Honda has clearly done their homework (and invested the R&D) to make this a global platform. Not having an Si hatch would be like spending 1 million bucks to build a building - a building that is designed to have three entrances - but not spending the last 1000 bucks to put in the third door.

That being said, it is entirely possible that this is precisely what is going to happen.
 

DavidJBrooks

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And also - we're assuming that a Si hatch would remain USDM only, which is a mistake. The Si coupe and sedan are generally unique to NA, but the Si hatch has been produced (at Swindon, in fact) for EU and JDM (and even Australian) markets for several generations. Building an Si hatch (however it is ultimately badged in other markets) for global distribution not only has precedent, but should be considered the most likely scenario.
 

DrwMDvs

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Why would Honda make such a close comparison between the Sport Hatch trim (interior and exterior) and the up and coming Si trim? I think Honda is offering the sport as a compromise for the inevitable; no Si Hatch. Think about it. They made the Sport hatch even closer to what the Si could be, so why would the do that? It would make people even more torn between the two trims and devalue the Si hatch in comparison to the coupe and sedan versions. I think there is a very strong case for a Si Sedan. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't mean it's not coming. Heck, we've only seen Si coupe spy shots ONCE!
 

DavidJBrooks

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They made the Sport hatch even closer to what the Si could be
I think Honda carved out an Si-sized hole in the hatch lineup.

Consider that:
  • In the US, the hatch only comes with the 6MT in the base model (LX and Sport).
  • The mid-range features (AA/CarPlay, moonroof) can only be had with the CVT.
  • The Canadian market (where the two go together) is a bit of an outlier, but it often has been (there have been overlapping variants up there for years).
  • Honda has said that the Si hatch will be the premium, sporty Civic
By not offering a sporty Civic hatch with a stick, some more power and some of the amenities, Honda is effectively alienating a small but not-insignificant part of the customer base they are allegedly courting.

If the Sport Touring were available with a stick, there'd be no question in my mind that there would be no Si hatch - even if there were an EX[-T] hatch with the 6MT, I could see the argument (an EX-T with a stick is effectively an Si minus the power, suspension and LSD). Absent those options, though, it seems most logical that we'll see an Si hatch. As it is, the line up is hugely illogical - neither the Sport (very small market interested only in 6MT with sporty looks) nor the Sport Touring (very small market willing to spend 30k on a hatchback Civic) are likely to be volume sellers (that's going to be the EX/EX-L, like it is with the sedan), so why invest in the body work tooling, center exhaust design, etc and then not spread it out over another model they can easily build and even more easily sell?

Hopefully we'll get all the info on the 14th, and not just some bullet points about the Si coupe.

I'm just arguing the way I see it, and agree that there is a very good chance that you and the rest of the "no-Si-hatchers" are right. Looking at it from a marketing, engineering, logistics and business standpoint, though, I just wouldn't understand it.
 


OP
OP

athensbobcat06

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All. Thanks for great responses and theories/opinions. This my first forum experience and its a welcome change to the norm of internet bashing and ignorance.

While I'm holding my fingers crossed they offer a hatch version of the SI, I'd be willing to give the sedan a strong look if the power/features are right and they announce that the SI trim is for sedan and coupe body styles only. I've been driving a Mazda3 hatchback for 10 years and while its cliche, once you have a hatchback you never want to go back. I might entertain the thought of a Type-R as well, but dealer markups (and ridiculous rear wing) have me thinking either the Sport or SI (if offered) is the way to go. Either way, it's exciting to see Honda moving back to desirable designs/powertrains.
 

VarmintCong

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I saw that too. I wonder what made him say that with such confidence. Could Honda have given that info to the journalists?
I always wonder how things like this remain secret - honda must have thousands of employees who know if there's a hatch Si by now. You'd think some of them would leak it over a beer. Maybe he has a buddy working at Honda.
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