What does the CTR compete with?

[JYR]

Motor Trend recently published an article asking "would you pay mid-$30k" for the Type R and then abruptly compared it to the Golf R, the STi, and the Focus RS. So that brings my question...what does the Civic R compare to, for the US market?

http://www.motortrend.com/news/honda-civic-type-r-goes-sale-late-spring/

I do not think that the R should be on the same playing field as the AWD counter parts. While I do think that those are all great cars, the R lacks the AWD component to be evenly compare it to the Golf R, the STi, and the Focus RS.

What I do think it plays well with the Focus ST, VW GTi, and maybe the Mini Cooper JCW. In fact, I believe that it brought the bar up a couple of notches, resetting the playing field for the FWD hot hatch competition.

Lets compare on paper what I believe are the FWD contenders.

For 2017 the GTi SE package brings:
FWD
4-door
220hp-258tq turbo 2ltr
DSG w/paddle shift or 6spd manual with an aggressive electric diff.
Dynamic Chassis Control
Driving modes
Variable steering ratio
13.4" brakes
Performance monitor
Leather sport seats
Fender Stereo
VW Car-net
SE model $30k MSRP

For 2017 the ST '402 package' brings:
FWD
4-door
252hp-270tq turbo 2ltr
6spd with aggressive diff; torque vectoring
Tuned suspension
13.1" brakes
Leather Recaro seats
Sony stereo
Carbon trim interior
MyFordTouch
Spec'd out at $28k

The 2017 Mini Cooper S brings:
FWD
4-door
228hp-236tq turbo 2ltr
6spd manual or 6spd Steptronic transmission w/paddle shift
Dynamic Chassis Control
Three driving modes
Performance tuned suspension
11.6" brakes
$31,700 per Car and Driver

The Civic Type R brings:
FWD
4-door
306hp-295tq turbo 2ltr
6spd with aggressive helical diff
Drive modes with adaptive suspension
13.8" Brembo brakes
Variable steering ratio
Heavily bolstered sport seats
7" infotainment with stereo system
Data monitoring (details still sketchy as to what it will provide)
Aero to compliment vehicle performance
Said to be "mid-$30k"


So that said, the Civic R does add a couple of things that I believe are worth the few extra dollars it will ask for. One being the Brembo brake package and the aerodynamics that the other vehicles do not offer. Outside of that, the additional ~50hp is also a nice benefit.


Thoughts?

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[Evo]

Motor Trend recently published an article asking "would you pay mid-$30k" for the Type R and then abruptly compared it to the Golf R, the STi, and the Focus RS. So that brings my question...what does the Civic R compare to, for the US market?

http://www.motortrend.com/news/honda-civic-type-r-goes-sale-late-spring/

I do not think that the R should be on the same playing field as the AWD counter parts. While I do think that those are all great cars, the R lacks the AWD component to be evenly compare it to the Golf R, the STi, and the Focus RS.

What I do think it plays well with the Focus ST, VW GTi, and maybe the Mini Cooper JCW. In fact, I believe that it brought the bar up a couple of notches, resetting the playing field for the FWD hot hatch competition.

Lets compare on paper what I believe are the FWD contenders.

For 2017 the GTi SE package brings:
FWD
4-door
220hp-258tq turbo 2ltr
DSG w/paddle shift or 6spd manual with an aggressive electric diff.
Dynamic Chassis Control
Driving modes
Variable steering ratio
13.4" brakes
Performance monitor
Leather sport seats
Fender Stereo
VW Car-net
SE model $30k MSRP

For 2017 the ST '402 package' brings:
FWD
4-door
252hp-270tq turbo 2ltr
6spd with aggressive diff; torque vectoring
Tuned suspension
13.1" brakes
Leather Recaro seats
Sony stereo
Carbon trim interior
MyFordTouch
Spec'd out at $28k

The 2017 Mini Cooper S brings:
FWD
4-door
228hp-236tq turbo 2ltr
6spd manual or 6spd Steptronic transmission w/paddle shift
Dynamic Chassis Control
Three driving modes
Performance tuned suspension
11.6" brakes
$31,700 per Car and Driver

The Civic Type R brings:
FWD
4-door
306hp-295tq turbo 2ltr
6spd with aggressive helical diff
Drive modes with adaptive suspension
13.8" Brembo brakes
Variable steering ratio
Heavily bolstered sport seats
7" infotainment with stereo system
Data monitoring (details still sketchy as to what it will provide)
Aero to compliment vehicle performance
Said to be "mid-$30k"


So that said, the Civic R does add a couple of things that I believe are worth the few extra dollars it will ask for. One being the Brembo brake package and the aerodynamics that the other vehicles do not offer. Outside of that, the additional ~50hp is also a nice benefit.


Thoughts?

Hondas excuse will be that it's fwd when it's not as fast on some tracks as STi evolution and golf r and especially the RS.

Fact is the car is 35 grand and so are those competition. The ST and GTI are in the civic Si range.

 

[JYR]

So is it AWD-less and a few grand less than a STI, Golf R, and Focus RS yet it competes with those vehicles? Last I checked, all three AWD vehicles mentioned tip out around $40-$42k, trim depending.

The CTR is going to get waxed by these vehicles, I think.

 

[Sgtstaadanko]

Motor Trend recently published an article asking "would you pay mid-$30k" for the Type R and then abruptly compared it to the Golf R, the STi, and the Focus RS. So that brings my question...what does the Civic R compare to, for the US market?

http://www.motortrend.com/news/honda-civic-type-r-goes-sale-late-spring/

I do not think that the R should be on the same playing field as the AWD counter parts. While I do think that those are all great cars, the R lacks the AWD component to be evenly compare it to the Golf R, the STi, and the Focus RS.

What I do think it plays well with the Focus ST, VW GTi, and maybe the Mini Cooper JCW. In fact, I believe that it brought the bar up a couple of notches, resetting the playing field for the FWD hot hatch competition.

Lets compare on paper what I believe are the FWD contenders.

For 2017 the GTi SE package brings:
FWD
4-door
220hp-258tq turbo 2ltr
DSG w/paddle shift or 6spd manual with an aggressive electric diff.
Dynamic Chassis Control
Driving modes
Variable steering ratio
13.4" brakes
Performance monitor
Leather sport seats
Fender Stereo
VW Car-net
SE model $30k MSRP

For 2017 the ST '402 package' brings:
FWD
4-door
252hp-270tq turbo 2ltr
6spd with aggressive diff; torque vectoring
Tuned suspension
13.1" brakes
Leather Recaro seats
Sony stereo
Carbon trim interior
MyFordTouch
Spec'd out at $28k

The 2017 Mini Cooper S brings:
FWD
4-door
228hp-236tq turbo 2ltr
6spd manual or 6spd Steptronic transmission w/paddle shift
Dynamic Chassis Control
Three driving modes
Performance tuned suspension
11.6" brakes
$31,700 per Car and Driver

The Civic Type R brings:
FWD
4-door
306hp-295tq turbo 2ltr
6spd with aggressive helical diff
Drive modes with adaptive suspension
13.8" Brembo brakes
Variable steering ratio
Heavily bolstered sport seats
7" infotainment with stereo system
Data monitoring (details still sketchy as to what it will provide)
Aero to compliment vehicle performance
Said to be "mid-$30k"


So that said, the Civic R does add a couple of things that I believe are worth the few extra dollars it will ask for. One being the Brembo brake package and the aerodynamics that the other vehicles do not offer. Outside of that, the additional ~50hp is also a nice benefit.


Thoughts?

Those are way way more comparable to the SI. The price of the CTR puts in firmly in RS, STI and R territory. The STI starts at 38k here in Canada.

 

[Civics4Ever]

I would bet that Honda is working on an AWD system and we will see it in the future.

 

[Cedric44]

CTR vs STI, RS, R.
Awd dosent matter honda choose fwd, still in the same class.
0-60 type R will lose there.
Everything else CTR> STI, RS, R.

 

[Design]

From a performance-to-price standpoint, the CTR competes more directly with the RS, STI and Golf R/S3. While AWD is considered a staple in this segment, it's far from definitive.

If the Si does in fact come with 220-230 HP, it'll slot just fine alongside the upcoming base 227 HP GTI. All Honda needs is an Si Touring to fill this segment more completely.

 

[Design]

The CTR is going to get waxed by these vehicles, I think.

On the circuit in the dry, out of the box, the FK2 outperforms all of these. In the wet and on the strip is where AWD shines.

 

[JYR]

We will see when the car becomes reality in a few weeks! I am still of the opinion that it raises the bar for the GTI and ST rather than lowers it for the AWD crowd. Realistically, it's 50 more hp, bigger brakes, and aero at this point.

 

[Design]

Honestly, aside from the motor, I believe the things to watch will be the chassis, aero and suspension. The ST, GTI, and Mini are much more consumer focused cars.

Willing to bet the CTR's marketing media will have 50-80% more track imagery over any other USDM FWD car mentioned.

 

[JYR]

Agree 100%. But does it compete with the AWD crowd? That is my ultimate question at this point.

Check out the Honda webpage for the R. Every single highlight includes the word race.
http://automobiles.honda.com/future-cars/civic-type-r

 

[Design]

I think the best way to describe it is a "niche" car. About the closest USDM FWD competitor is the Cobalt SST (as far as SCCA is concerned).

That said, I expect the CTR will fall in the same class as the S2K, Evo and STI (B Stock). It's too competitive for DS IMHO.
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Lists/2011/stockc.html

 

[ZdH]

So is it AWD-less and a few grand less than a STI, Golf R, and Focus RS yet it competes with those vehicles? Last I checked, all three AWD vehicles mentioned tip out around $40-$42k, trim depending.

The CTR is going to get waxed by these vehicles, I think.

Unfortunately most arnt comparing top trim leveles
Sti 35,500
RS 35,900
R 39,100

Say it comes in truly at Mid 30's=35k most people cross shop based on features and power and price.

It really depends on how Honda markets the vehicle really. If they market it the fastest FWD vehicle and go that route it's fair to say okay
Mini Cooper
ST
GTI are good comparisons and now it's the most expensive in the class and best performing.

If they market it as a Performance Hot Hatch it's smack right in the middle for me.
Then you can put everything into the Mix
Golf R
RS
Cooper
GTI
Type R which falls right in the middle at a 33k price tag. Middle of the HP almost all the bells and whistles etc.

 

[HondaFan2017]

Speaking about competitors they say that sales of RS are still going strong. Really?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ford-focus-rs-demand-stays-175538697.html

 

[JYR]

Unfortunately most arnt comparing top trim leveles
Sti 35,500
RS 35,900
R 39,100

Say it comes in truly at Mid 30's=35k most people cross shop based on features and power and price.

It really depends on how Honda markets the vehicle really. If they market it the fastest FWD vehicle and go that route it's fair to say okay
Mini Cooper
ST
GTI are good comparisons and now it's the most expensive in the class and best performing.

If they market it as a Performance Hot Hatch it's smack right in the middle for me.
Then you can put everything into the Mix
Golf R
RS
Cooper
GTI
Type R which falls right in the middle at a 33k price tag. Middle of the HP almost all the bells and whistles etc.

All very true points. Remember, the GTI is what VW used to beat the R on the 'ring.
https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

The STi is 5 seconds slower than the CURRENT R, though the last time Subaru ran the ring was 2010.

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