Sprinkle a little special sauce on it... and it makes power.

[VitViper]

Early on I posted how fuel is the #1 mod for making power on this engine (eclipses intakes/downpipes), and here's why! And here's all the info you need!

http://blog.vittuned.com/making-power-on-the-civic-x-full-disclosure/

Sponsored

 

[dallasjhawk]

And my man Vit is getting me revisions on the e85 blend for my cvt already and its amazeballs yall. Keep in mind i was already tuned by him on 93. The punch this packs from a roll is a thing of beauty

 

[richd]

Would a few gallons of e85 mixed with 93 make any diff on a Hondata 6psi CARB tune in a 17 sport hatch ? No other tuning possible right now with CARB. I may take the long ride to the only e85 station I know of to try.

 

[KramVT0215]

I imagine using a blend of E85 will be much more friendly to the fuel level sender than straight E85...that is big news! I only have 1 E85 station around me looks like i'll need to pick up a couple containers to hold some special sauce once I'm ready for a tune with you! Good stuff as always Vit!

 

[VitViper]

Would a few gallons of e85 mixed with 93 make any diff on a Hondata 6psi CARB tune in a 17 sport hatch ? No other tuning possible right now with CARB. I may take the long ride to the only e85 station I know of to try.

Custom tuning is necessary to realize potential gains of ethanol.

I imagine using a blend of E85 will be much more friendly to the fuel level sender than straight E85...that is big news! I only have 1 E85 station around me looks like i'll need to pick up a couple containers to hold some special sauce once I'm ready for a tune with you! Good stuff as always Vit!

As Honda historically not had sealed fuel level senders (I haven't taken the pump out of our gas tank to verify it on the CivicX, but can be assumed), high ethanol content has corroded the sender and your gas gauge goes out. This has never happened on cars we run blends on (which we have been doing for YEARS!).

Something we should stop and realize -- D/I is not a new concept. It has been around for quite a long time, it's only "new to Honda". I've cut open the D/I pumps used on these cars and they are internally no different than the other ones I've taken apart. We've had Mazdspeed3's, FT86 and even a new WRX as test mules at the shop. One of the concerns is D/I pump lubrication -- people on other platforms running high ethanol content will run additive in the fuel to combat ethanol's in-effectiveness as a lubricant (the fuel lines/injectors/rail themselves are fine). The concern is scoring the internals (bore, piston) in the pump, which will lead to large fuel pressure drops. When/if/how this will happen? Who knows... YMMV kind of thing.

As for the blends -- this isn't big news, ethanol blending has been done forever on other D/I platforms and there has even been research done on ethanol's charge cooling and anti-knock effects. At about 20% ethanol content on most motors the engine is no longer "knock limited" (meaning you can run more ignition timing than makes power), with the knock limit continuing to increase away from practical ignition timing ("mbt") by 40% ethanol content. On port injected motors 50% ethanol content tends to be the "sweet" spot (as port doesn't benefit from the charge cooling as much as high pressure d/i fuel systems). You'll continue to gain *some* more cooling from higher ethanol content on D/I past 20-30%, but it's not nearly as much as the initial big "hit" when you introduce some more past what is in the pump gas already.

If you have some free time, this is a great white paper based on research done at MIT: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwiNj_2ttuvVAhVSImMKHTjwAf8QFghRMAU&url=https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/69496/775670245-MIT.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEpedD-kgrlrUHKUf6wN_PFoxWA7A

So depending on what you're after, ideal ethanol content in the fuel is around 25-40% on this car from my testing. I've run full tanks of ethanol (E85) as well. Yes it's been tested -- the effective timing map did not increase past what we were running on E25, so the gains were marginal, but you're on the limit of the fuel system with the stock car (injector pulsewidths approaching 7ms -- once you get close this this area in the 6k+ rpm area you start to experience misfires as the fuel charge has no time to mix and hits the spark event). One other fun fact -- even with increased D/I pressure, the VOLUME the pump can move is fixed -- eventually you will get there. On high boost/high load extended runs I was starting to see sporadic fuel pressure drops (3-4mpa drops here or there), which is a sign we're on the limit of the fuel system. This isn't "seat of the pants" or "it feels so and so" -- this is actual analytical data from testing we've been doing. Every car is a little different so when/where you'll see the limits will vary. Once you're there, you have to reduce fuel system demand or increase fuel system supply (D/I pressure up to what the pump can push for volume, SOI, such things). I've also seen people run the motors quite lean for the sake of making power (13.0 afr and such on D/I cars in boost) -- sure it can still make power, with the risk of punching a hole through a piston.

Cliff notes: E25 is the bomb diggity and the sweet spot for this motor.

 

[davemarco]

Custom tuning is necessary to realize potential gains of ethanol.



As Honda historically not had sealed fuel level senders (I haven't taken the pump out of our gas tank to verify it on the CivicX, but can be assumed), high ethanol content has corroded the sender and your gas gauge goes out. This has never happened on cars we run blends on (which we have been doing for YEARS!).

Something we should stop and realize -- D/I is not a new concept. It has been around for quite a long time, it's only "new to Honda". I've cut open the D/I pumps used on these cars and they are internally no different than the other ones I've taken apart. We've had Mazdspeed3's, FT86 and even a new WRX as test mules at the shop. One of the concerns is D/I pump lubrication -- people on other platforms running high ethanol content will run additive in the fuel to combat ethanol's in-effectiveness as a lubricant (the fuel lines/injectors/rail themselves are fine). The concern is scoring the internals (bore, piston) in the pump, which will lead to large fuel pressure drops. When/if/how this will happen? Who knows... YMMV kind of thing.

As for the blends -- this isn't big news, ethanol blending has been done forever on other D/I platforms and there has even been research done on ethanol's charge cooling and anti-knock effects. At about 20% ethanol content on most motors the engine is no longer "knock limited" (meaning you can run more ignition timing than makes power), with the knock limit continuing to increase away from practical ignition timing ("mbt") by 40% ethanol content. On port injected motors 50% ethanol content tends to be the "sweet" spot (as port doesn't benefit from the charge cooling as much as high pressure d/i fuel systems). You'll continue to gain *some* more cooling from higher ethanol content on D/I past 20-30%, but it's not nearly as much as the initial big "hit" when you introduce some more past what is in the pump gas already.

If you have some free time, this is a great white paper based on research done at MIT: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwiNj_2ttuvVAhVSImMKHTjwAf8QFghRMAU&url=https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/69496/775670245-MIT.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEpedD-kgrlrUHKUf6wN_PFoxWA7A

So depending on what you're after, ideal ethanol content in the fuel is around 25-40% on this car from my testing. I've run full tanks of ethanol (E85) as well. Yes it's been tested -- the effective timing map did not increase past what we were running on E25, so the gains were marginal, but you're on the limit of the fuel system with the stock car (injector pulsewidths approaching 7ms -- once you get close this this area in the 5k+ rpm area you start to experience misfires as the fuel charge has no time to mix and hits the spark event). One other fun fact -- even with increased D/I pressure, the VOLUME the pump can move is fixed -- eventually you will get there. On high boost/high load extended runs I was starting to see sporadic fuel pressure drops (3-4mpa drops here or there), which is a sign we're on the limit of the fuel system. This isn't "seat of the pants" or "it feels so and so" -- this is actual analytical data from testing we've been doing. Every car is a little different so when/where you'll see the limits will vary. Once you're there, you have to reduce fuel system demand or increase fuel system supply (D/I pressure up to what the pump can push for volume, SOI, such things). I've also seen people run the motors quite lean for the sake of making power (13.0 afr and such on D/I cars in boost) -- sure it can still make power, with the risk of punching a hole through a piston.

Cliff notes: E25 is the bomb diggity and the sweet spot for this motor.

Were the previously blogged power figures on the SI obtained using an ethanol blend or just straight 93 octane?

 

[VitViper]

Were the previously blogged power figures on the SI obtained using an ethanol blend or just straight 93 octane?

We've been using various ethanol blends since December 2016. On ~93 octane we were around 235-240whp or so. Various ethanol based fuels are good for another 20-40whp over premium grade fuels (quality of premium grade fuels will vary --- 91 octane with E10 is better than 93 octane with no ethanol).

Keep in mind our car was also virtually bone stock during testing (threw on PRL DP on the Si since we had it -- initial testing on EX-T was done using just better fuel, no mods).

 

[richd]

For a data point my 2014 Silverado 5.3 v8 makes 355hp on regular and is rated for380 hp on E85, right in the manual if I recall. Seat of the pants you can feel it too but it loses 4-5 mpg on it. Overall cost/mi the same because it's cheaper per gallon.
I don't know how the engine management detects the E85 or if it just relies on knock sensor feedback and just has a map based on advancing the timing until knocking occurs. Just a guess. It also has components that won't fail due to the E85.
That's why I wondered if the Civic will advance more timing without a tune or will it just hit a limit with no further gain. I still may try it next time I'm out that way where it's sold.

 

[dc2turbo]

For a data point my 2014 Silverado 5.3 v8 makes 355hp on regular and is rated for380 hp on E85, right in the manual if I recall. Seat of the pants you can feel it too but it loses 4-5 mpg on it. Overall cost/mi the same because it's cheaper per gallon.
I don't know how the engine management detects the E85 or if it just relies on knock sensor feedback and just has a map based on advancing the timing until knocking occurs. Just a guess. It also has components that won't fail due to the E85.
That's why I wondered if the Civic will advance more timing without a tune or will it just hit a limit with no further gain. I still may try it next time I'm out that way where it's sold.

flex fuel sensor

 

[VitViper]

For a data point my 2014 Silverado 5.3 v8 makes 355hp on regular and is rated for380 hp on E85, right in the manual if I recall. Seat of the pants you can feel it too but it loses 4-5 mpg on it. Overall cost/mi the same because it's cheaper per gallon.
I don't know how the engine management detects the E85 or if it just relies on knock sensor feedback and just has a map based on advancing the timing until knocking occurs. Just a guess. It also has components that won't fail due to the E85.
That's why I wondered if the Civic will advance more timing without a tune or will it just hit a limit with no further gain. I still may try it next time I'm out that way where it's sold.

Those cars are tuned for it from the factory. GM has a flex fuel sensor on those cars. On other platforms (Ford comes to mind) they used an inferred flex content logic (requires great confidence in the lambda fault detection in the ECU).

On this car you need a tune to take advantage of any additional ethanol.

 

[Solis#1730]

@VitViper how do you think e85 would effect the dilution of oil for D/I? Would you suggest shorter OIC for e85 tuned civic x's.

Don't think flash pro has flex fuel table you can play with( correct me if I'm wrong)
If so I would recommend Zeitronix. Had their kit on my last setup and it was one of the best upgrades I've done.

 

[VitViper]

@VitViper how do you think e85 would effect the dilution of oil for D/I? Would you suggest shorter OIC for e85 tuned civic x's.

Don't think flash pro has flex fuel table you can play with( correct me if I'm wrong)
If so I would recommend Zeitronix. Had their kit on my last setup and it was one of the best upgrades I've done.

Like any other engine running ethanol based fuels... if you're running a blend it's not really a concern. Full E85 will certain contaminate oil quicker and sooner oil change intervals.

Flex fuel would be nice, but it's not a necessity to do a blend -- blends have been done for years without flex sensors. If you're tuned on "E26" and end up with "E22" or "E32" it's not going to break the tune with such small fluctuations in content. Reason I like the 2.5/7 blend is it's very easy to be consistent with it -- drive til you have 3 or 4 bars left, put in the E, fill up with pump (which usually ends up at 6.7-7g area). Nice and easy and it's an ideal blend for power on this engine.

It's also easy for people who can't get ethanol easily (have to travel to get it) -- two 5 gallon containers is 4 fill ups and you still get 38-42mpg at 75mph on the freeway with the blend -- no hit to fuel economy on our car. Full E85 cost us about 5-6mpg (anyone claiming otherwise is selling snake oil -- the injector pulsewidths at cruising go up quite a bit so you are using a fair amount more fuel to run a stoic on ethanol -- 30-40% more).

 

[KramVT0215]

Custom tuning is necessary to realize potential gains of ethanol.



As Honda historically not had sealed fuel level senders (I haven't taken the pump out of our gas tank to verify it on the CivicX, but can be assumed), high ethanol content has corroded the sender and your gas gauge goes out. This has never happened on cars we run blends on (which we have been doing for YEARS!).

Something we should stop and realize -- D/I is not a new concept. It has been around for quite a long time, it's only "new to Honda". I've cut open the D/I pumps used on these cars and they are internally no different than the other ones I've taken apart. We've had Mazdspeed3's, FT86 and even a new WRX as test mules at the shop. One of the concerns is D/I pump lubrication -- people on other platforms running high ethanol content will run additive in the fuel to combat ethanol's in-effectiveness as a lubricant (the fuel lines/injectors/rail themselves are fine). The concern is scoring the internals (bore, piston) in the pump, which will lead to large fuel pressure drops. When/if/how this will happen? Who knows... YMMV kind of thing.

As for the blends -- this isn't big news, ethanol blending has been done forever on other D/I platforms and there has even been research done on ethanol's charge cooling and anti-knock effects. At about 20% ethanol content on most motors the engine is no longer "knock limited" (meaning you can run more ignition timing than makes power), with the knock limit continuing to increase away from practical ignition timing ("mbt") by 40% ethanol content. On port injected motors 50% ethanol content tends to be the "sweet" spot (as port doesn't benefit from the charge cooling as much as high pressure d/i fuel systems). You'll continue to gain *some* more cooling from higher ethanol content on D/I past 20-30%, but it's not nearly as much as the initial big "hit" when you introduce some more past what is in the pump gas already.

If you have some free time, this is a great white paper based on research done at MIT: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwiNj_2ttuvVAhVSImMKHTjwAf8QFghRMAU&url=https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/69496/775670245-MIT.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEpedD-kgrlrUHKUf6wN_PFoxWA7A

So depending on what you're after, ideal ethanol content in the fuel is around 25-40% on this car from my testing. I've run full tanks of ethanol (E85) as well. Yes it's been tested -- the effective timing map did not increase past what we were running on E25, so the gains were marginal, but you're on the limit of the fuel system with the stock car (injector pulsewidths approaching 7ms -- once you get close this this area in the 6k+ rpm area you start to experience misfires as the fuel charge has no time to mix and hits the spark event). One other fun fact -- even with increased D/I pressure, the VOLUME the pump can move is fixed -- eventually you will get there. On high boost/high load extended runs I was starting to see sporadic fuel pressure drops (3-4mpa drops here or there), which is a sign we're on the limit of the fuel system. This isn't "seat of the pants" or "it feels so and so" -- this is actual analytical data from testing we've been doing. Every car is a little different so when/where you'll see the limits will vary. Once you're there, you have to reduce fuel system demand or increase fuel system supply (D/I pressure up to what the pump can push for volume, SOI, such things). I've also seen people run the motors quite lean for the sake of making power (13.0 afr and such on D/I cars in boost) -- sure it can still make power, with the risk of punching a hole through a piston.

Cliff notes: E25 is the bomb diggity and the sweet spot for this motor.

Thanks for taking the time to follow up on this for me appreciate it! i'll definitely have a look through that article...I always played it pretty safe on my 8th gen (just a stg 2 comptech) and 9th gen (bolt on) never went all out on those platforms with you as my tuner but I am just loving this new 10th gen and would love to push this one more than I've pushed others so this helps me to learn all I can!

 

[fiend busa]

Just bought a 30 gallon drum of C85...don't even know if they will ship it to me, but hey, my province was listed lol.

 

[fiend busa]

Like any other engine running ethanol based fuels... if you're running a blend it's not really a concern. Full E85 will certain contaminate oil quicker and sooner oil change intervals.

Flex fuel would be nice, but it's not a necessity to do a blend -- blends have been done for years without flex sensors. If you're tuned on "E26" and end up with "E22" or "E32" it's not going to break the tune with such small fluctuations in content. Reason I like the 2.5/7 blend is it's very easy to be consistent with it -- drive til you have 3 or 4 bars left, put in the E, fill up with pump (which usually ends up at 6.7-7g area). Nice and easy and it's an ideal blend for power on this engine.

It's also easy for people who can't get ethanol easily (have to travel to get it) -- two 5 gallon containers is 4 fill ups and you still get 38-42mpg at 75mph on the freeway with the blend -- no hit to fuel economy on our car. Full E85 cost us about 5-6mpg (anyone claiming otherwise is selling snake oil -- the injector pulsewidths at cruising go up quite a bit so you are using a fair amount more fuel to run a stoic on ethanol -- 30-40% more).

With 3 bars, how many gallons do you fill up with E?

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