1.5T PRL Motorsports Civic X 1.5T Product Development

[VitViper]

Initial testing of the DP at low boost (factory levels) showed about 8hp gained... but the boost as monitored by the dyno was about .5-.6psi higher which would account for the "gain". At 14.5psi of boost there was literally nothing to be found, ran the motor as hard as it could go and basically nothing changed. The turbo DID want to spool faster, but this is limited (controlled) by the ECU, so it didn't really get a chance to. So on a factory tune I can see the DP "making power" simply because boost might actually be a bit higher than the ECU is wanting because the ECU is calibrated for factory exhaust components (freer flowing exhaust == turbo wants to spool quicker and will make a tad more boost with the same "boost control" settings).

Since my clutch is hanging in by a thread I ran some higher boost pulls by rolling the boost in and was able to see about 260tq before the clutch wanted to slip -- and zero power difference on the top end, still the same 230-240hp as before. I'm working on an upgraded clutch so I can do a full test at high boost.

I'm a little disappointed but also surprised -- I suspected this motor really just needed good fuel and there may not be a flow restriction since the turbo (especially turbine) is soooo small in relation to the factory downpipe (even though it has a cat). With the stock turbo it may not be flowing enough to be backing up the factory DP... Once my upgraded clutch is ready I will get back with high boost (26psi+) mid range pulls as I think this is where the extra power (torque) and DP will help -- or with an upgraded turbo, coming soon as well .

Keep in mind I am on good fuel so my motor isn't ignition limited -- on 87 octane or varying forms of "premium" (the premium fuels do vary) the results may vary as the ign. limit of the motor may be different with the free flowing DP -- so the power should be found in the tune at that point.

That said the DP is a beautiful piece -- quality work as always from PRL and fit on the car like a glove. About a 2 hour install on our lift.

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[kshawn]

Initial testing of the DP at low boost (factory levels) showed about 8hp gained... but the boost as monitored by the dyno was about .5-.6psi higher which would account for the "gain". At 14.5psi of boost there was literally nothing to be found, ran the motor as hard as it could go and basically nothing changed. The turbo DID want to spool faster, but this is limited (controlled) by the ECU, so it didn't really get a chance to. So on a factory tune I can see the DP "making power" simply because boost might actually be a bit higher than the ECU is wanting because the ECU is calibrated for factory exhaust components (freer flowing exhaust == turbo wants to spool quicker and will make a tad more boost with the same "boost control" settings).

Since my clutch is hanging in by a thread I ran some higher boost pulls by rolling the boost in and was able to see about 260tq before the clutch wanted to slip -- and zero power difference on the top end, still the same 230-240hp as before. I'm working on an upgraded clutch so I can do a full test at high boost.

I'm a little disappointed but also surprised -- I suspected this motor really just needed good fuel and there may not be a flow restriction since the turbo (especially turbine) is soooo small in relation to the factory downpipe (even though it has a cat). With the stock turbo it may not be flowing enough to be backing up the factory DP... Once my upgraded clutch is ready I will get back with high boost (26psi+) mid range pulls as I think this is where the extra power (torque) and DP will help -- or with an upgraded turbo, coming soon as well .

Keep in mind I am on good fuel so my motor isn't ignition limited -- on 87 octane or varying forms of "premium" (the premium fuels do vary) the results may vary as the ign. limit of the motor may be different with the free flowing DP -- so the power should be found in the tune at that point.

That said the DP is a beautiful piece -- quality work as always from PRL and fit on the car like a glove. About a 2 hour install on our lift.

Very interested about that upgraded clutch. Cvt?

 

[VitViper]

Very interested about that upgraded clutch. Cvt?

CVT doesn't use a clutch. We have a 6MT, using a CVT for any product testing is pretty useless since you can't control the trans and there's a potential every pull will run different. If you smoke your CVT you're buying a whole new transmission from Honda.

 

[omigulay]

Initial testing of the DP at low boost (factory levels) showed about 8hp gained... but the boost as monitored by the dyno was about .5-.6psi higher which would account for the "gain". At 14.5psi of boost there was literally nothing to be found, ran the motor as hard as it could go and basically nothing changed. The turbo DID want to spool faster, but this is limited (controlled) by the ECU, so it didn't really get a chance to. So on a factory tune I can see the DP "making power" simply because boost might actually be a bit higher than the ECU is wanting because the ECU is calibrated for factory exhaust components (freer flowing exhaust == turbo wants to spool quicker and will make a tad more boost with the same "boost control" settings).

Since my clutch is hanging in by a thread I ran some higher boost pulls by rolling the boost in and was able to see about 260tq before the clutch wanted to slip -- and zero power difference on the top end, still the same 230-240hp as before. I'm working on an upgraded clutch so I can do a full test at high boost.

I'm a little disappointed but also surprised -- I suspected this motor really just needed good fuel and there may not be a flow restriction since the turbo (especially turbine) is soooo small in relation to the factory downpipe (even though it has a cat). With the stock turbo it may not be flowing enough to be backing up the factory DP... Once my upgraded clutch is ready I will get back with high boost (26psi+) mid range pulls as I think this is where the extra power (torque) and DP will help -- or with an upgraded turbo, coming soon as well .

Keep in mind I am on good fuel so my motor isn't ignition limited -- on 87 octane or varying forms of "premium" (the premium fuels do vary) the results may vary as the ign. limit of the motor may be different with the free flowing DP -- so the power should be found in the tune at that point.

That said the DP is a beautiful piece -- quality work as always from PRL and fit on the car like a glove. About a 2 hour install on our lift.

Since it's making 8hp gained, is the dyno similar to what PRL posted? On the PRL dyno, there was a lot of power that was made on the lower end of the RPM range and therefore more low-mid power. I really want this to work or else I would be better off spending my money elsewhere.

 

[VitViper]

Since it's making 8hp gained, is the dyno similar to what PRL posted? On the PRL dyno, there was a lot of power that was made on the lower end of the RPM range and therefore more low-mid power. I really want this to work or else I would be better off spending my money elsewhere.

There was very minor gains from 3k to 5k, like 2-3hp. But when comparing the boost curve the "gains" graph shows .5-.6 higher boost levels enough though the ECU was asking for the same boost as pre-dp -- not an unexpected behavior. I wouldn't call this a "gain" ask we can just ask for .5psi more boost and it'd be the same thing. Normally I see something sizeable when tuning before/after with a DP -- as it usually frees up bottlenecked turbo potential (able to run more boost -- that's where the power is found). Lower octane fuels might see gains from the race downpipe (no cat), maybe, but if you have really good fuel the gains may be negligible or non-existent.

I can put our car back on 87 octane and run another test... but really who cares. I want to see the full potential of the motor when running good fuel and pushing lots of boost. So clutch next and we'll see how much torque this thing will make and how much power a better turbo will put out -- this is where the DP will shine I think.

I can't comment on PRL's dyno as their car is a CVT and I didn't tune it. The 10hp gain on the stock tune could of come from anywhere -- the CVT will run boost different pull to pull sometimes if it wants to, and this is clearly visible in their graph (torque comes in later with the reflash -- DP upgrades cause the turbo to come in sooner, not later). Our test car is fully tuned to it's potential, then we put parts on and try to extract any more power those parts will allow -- as that's what "upgrades" should normally do. For example: why would I buy an intake or a dp or an i/c when I am already making more power and can't extract more when the parts are installed? If the bottle neck isn't one part, we move on to the next part. That's what testing is for.

 

[ryan714]

CVT doesn't use a clutch. We have a 6MT, using a CVT for any product testing is pretty useless since you can't control the trans and there's a potential every pull will run different. If you smoke your CVT you're buying a whole new transmission from Honda.

With that being said, would it be useless to even get the DP and tune for the CVT?

 

[VitViper]

With that being said, would it be useless to even get the DP and tune for the CVT?

A tune wakes up these cars, CVT or MT. I've got cars running wide open with the CVT and KTuner.

 

[ryan714]

A tune wakes up these cars, CVT or MT. I've got cars running wide open with the CVT and KTuner.

Sorry for getting off topic, but which one would you go with to get the most power, Hondata or KTuner? And how much did it make on CVT?

 

[Quicksipper]

Sorry for getting off topic, but which one would you go with to get the most power, Hondata or KTuner? And how much did it make on CVT?

Ktuner has more tables

for now.

 

[maddmatt02]

Ktuner has more tables

for now.

Is there any documentation anywhere to find out what tables are available for editing currently on both tuning platforms?

 

[Quicksipper]

Is there any documentation anywhere to find out what tables are available for editing currently on both tuning platforms?

that one is for @VitViper to answer

 

[ryan714]

Ktuner has more tables

for now.

im new to this so more tables mean?

 

[Quicksipper]

@VitViper- "There are literally hundreds of tables that either directly control or have implications in things such as boost control, throttle control, timing control, EWG response & control, DI system control and more. I've dug through and figured out a lot of it already using KTuner. Currently FlashPro only has a couple of SUPER rudimentary tables exposed that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what you can do with this ecu -- in time this will change, I'm sure "

 

[VitViper]

Sorry for getting off topic, but which one would you go with to get the most power, Hondata or KTuner? And how much did it make on CVT?

Why do you assume one would make more power than the other? It's a Honda ECU regardless of what you use to manipulate the tables. currently KTuner has better control, especially for the CVT.

Ktuner has more tables

for now.

Is there any documentation anywhere to find out what tables are available for editing currently on both tuning platforms?

No, I'm also not a big advocate for exposing everything there is to the user end as most of it most people don't need to see as either it won't make sense anyway, or a small change can have very big implications on how the motor runs. I also have no plans on documenting what all the various tables do as it's not my job to give away my R&D to copy cat tooners lol. not really Hondata's or ktuners job either... if companies want to tune these things, they need to buy the car and figure it out I've already put in well over 100 hours into the various logic in this ECU... dynos and map files don't even begin to cover the investment in man hours to figure out the logic in this ECU.

 

[ryan714]

Why do you assume one would make more power than the other? It's a Honda ECU regardless of what you use to manipulate the tables. currently KTuner has better control, especially for the CVT.

No reason, I saw on a couple of threads of people saying the Flashpro made their car go faster, but by a slight half a second or so on. I'm new to this and I just want to figure out what I can do to maximize my car's full potential.

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