Perspective on the Civic Si 1.5T engine choice

[17siturb0]

Yeah... My 04 si that made over 300whp and trapped 121 mph never had any problems. Good tuner goes a long way. I used Stoopid for tuning.

That's wicked! There's a blue 04 for sale down the road from me haha. Nice man.

 

[Ryude]

That's wicked! There's a blue 04 for sale down the road from me haha. Nice man.

I fucked up actually, I bought the wrong turbo kit. The tuner recommended a T60, I ordered a T67. Way too big of a turbo. That dyno was 8 psi boost... That turbo didn't even reach efficiency until 12 psi lol.

 

[Design]

Indeed.



I mentioned this elsewhere, but IMO Honda's sportier models always stood out by combining "handling/road feel" with "long-term reliability". Other cars/brands may have one of these components, but I'm yet to find one that would have both to the degree Honda has been known for historically. (Sure, we might truly be witnessing the beginning of the end, with all this uncharacteristic initial quality crap, but so far I'm writing it off to new platform/first production year, and keeping the faith. Only time will tell; there's no way to really know this now.)

So regarding other brands "beating" the SI - I personally always take long-term reliability history into account.
Any car choice is always some trade-off, balance between several pros and cons. At the time when some of the iconic Honda cars you mentioned earlier were made, I guarantee you there were other brands "beating" Honda's performance numbers hands-down. But then those same fast cars spent a lot more time in repair shops. When I choose a car to buy, this is a hugely important thing; to me reliability beats most other parameters. (YMMV of course.)

It's not about being the best ever in all respects; it never has been. It can't be; that's just impractical. It's about being the best at your game. I hope you don't think the decision-making folks at Honda are stupid, or don't realize it has been consistently "outperformed" by GTI, WRX, Ford, etc. We don't have all the info they have, we don't have the responsibility to shareholders, etc. -- IOW, we're not running a car division of one of the world's best technology companies. We're not looking at the same "big picture" they are. And it would be short-sighted and arrogant to think we know better somehow.
They did notice that in fact, and it is due to that competition this 10th generation is the most powerful one to date. And so will be the new Si. (I just wish they had it as a hatchback, but what can ya do...)

Now, as I said, I'm gambling on Honda's history of reliability... Really hoping all these gen X issues are a temporary glitch and not the preview of the company's future...

Time will tell. It always goes.

Happy New Year y'all!

I think this time around, Honda was in a predicament trying to get to a goal of 230 while keeping costs as low as possible. I think the 2.0 would have required an entirely different intake/IC, exhaust, and valvetrain to optimize fuel economy over performance. Maybe would have added another $1200-1800 over the mass produced 1.5. Not a lot when considering the mod potential. But maybe too much when comparing stock for stock in an extremely competitive segment.

In "stock" form I've heard they've been able to configure the 1.5 upwards of 240 in testing. I think a 205-220 variant would still be enough to distance itself from the base powertrains while meeting their 300K reliability target. Combined with stiffer suspension, shorter gearing, lsd, seating, and the adaptive chassis; it could end up being a lot of car for $2K over the EX-T.

My interest in the SI is similar to most. A decently powered and engaging platform for me; and solid reliability & practicality for the family. The sedan checks just about all the boxes except for HID/LEDs. No interest in modding much beyond the infotainment. I'm over high HP FWD and ready for more long term practicality/ reliability. And I suspect quite a few others are in the same boat.

My 2 cents...

 

[LoveToDrive]

@canadasiguy,

Everyone is saying have some perspective here. This is exactly why I don't read auto magazines that continue to rate cars and have to choose "the best." It's impossible to compare all the vehicles in its class because even within so called class, every car is unique. They have to take each car for what it is. They seem to want everything they are asking for and criticize the negatives like they are the downfall.

If the car makers need to make sporty vehicles within a certain budget, somewhere, something has to be sacrificed. VW may offer amazing driving feel, but sacrifice reliability in general. Honda may offer a reasonable price, but sacrifice the "best" driving feel. Or, not use AWD to keep the car light and cheaper. The list goes on and on. Personally, I like it that Honda offers the Si at a price I can afford and still give me plenty of sporty feel with good reliability.

How do you and the auto mags exactly define "top of its class" anyways? Let's say that Si do beat everybody's numbers this year. The following year, it will be beaten by someone else. Then is that car now "top of its class?"

These ratings do create a healthy competition for the auto makers, and that's good. However, we need to take their opinions with a grain of salt. Our daily use does not match how the auto mags drive on track so it really doesn't matter who comes out The Best.

The best for many regular folks is the one that makes them feel connected to the road, no matter what car. We all look for different car traits for that. You don't need to wait for the Si to come out. You won't be happy with it no matter what.

 

[CEXT]

I think Honda's strategy is to make the SI underpowered but highly tuneable, so everyone mods, and they don't need to honor any warranties.
But seriously, I think Honda just wants to make the 10th Si a little faster and more fuel efficient than the 9th gen. Fuel efficiency matters more than anything else nowadays. It's not all about V8 power anymore.
Don't forget the 1991 civic si only had 108hp; it never needed big power to be fun.

 

[procivic]

I think the bottom line is that the Si is going to be quite an improvement over the previous generation Si, and you'll be able to get stage 1 supercharged 9th Gen Si levels of power with only a few bolt-ons most likely. The fun factor for the dollar spent is going to be much better.

I also would contend that Honda has not lost their way in terms of offering specialty models. I think them offering the Type R here in the states is proof of that. I mean, that car has never been offered in the U.S. before. I'm incredibly excited to see what it has to offer. It reminds me of when the Integra Type R came out in the late 90s.

 

[ulieq]

Not sure why these didn't addd the SI turbo into the CRV, such a shame.

 

[Phosky]

The Si does not need a 2.0L that's for the Type r. You don't need big displacement anymore to make power.

*woosh*

 

[18k]

I think people forget the 10th gen is a lot lighter than the 9th gen, so even if it is a small gain in power, it will still be faster, plus with the boost the TQ will for sure make it feel faster.

That being said, I think the underlying issue is that a boosted 1.5l is not Honda, a high reving VTEC motor is, the 1.5 (so far) is none of what made Honda motors great, you could not buy anything like a b series, from anyone but Honda (maybe 4a-ge), but you can get a small displacement low boost turbo motor from anyone now, for basically any price. It isn't special.

 

[dmitri]

^^ that's similar to some arguments for the rotary engine -- and Mazda's and others' eventual (and recurring) decisions to drop it. If you ("you" meaning "one", "a company", etc.) can do XYZ better, the value of holding on to the old (not-as-good) way of doing XYZ becomes questionable, at least from any sort of practical perspective. Unless we're talking about something with a historical/cultural value, or something along those lines.

 

[Ryude]

And Honda hasn't had a high revving Si for almost 10 years.

 

[Design]

The 8th Gen Si came with an 8K redline through 2011.

 

[17siturb0]

06-11 civic si was my favorite generation. And adding the prl turbo kit to that was just amazing!! I loved the k20z3 engine.

 

[Vtak Groceries]

What an idiot. Anyone to refers to cars as grocery getters isn't a real enthusiast. Just go buy another car and be done with it. You have nothing to add to this conversation.

What lol. Civic Si is a true sports grocery machine bro.

 

[Vtak Groceries]

The 8th Gen Si came with an 8K redline through 2011.

8200rpm for the K20z3. Hondata tune takes it to 8600 RPM.

I think Honda could have still made the 1.5T a fun engine to have in the Si. All they had to do was make it rev and make it sound good (7500rpm or more) Instead they tuned it into a "high torque" version of the 1.5T in the base civic. A high torque 1.5T basically means, not fun, not high revving, easy/lazy/cheap way to hit power goals for the Si. Basically the same complaint every Turbo motor gets now in days.

Honda SHOULD have done more to make the Si different from the base civic turbo. They have the knowledge and skills to do it.... Yes everyone is going turbo but that does not mean Honda should build a Si without passion. Look at Porsche. Their new base 911 has a 3.0TT that revs to 7600rpm and feels like a N/A engine. Thats what Honda should have done with the Si. Make it rev and make it fun. Save the lap times for the CTR. Anyway enough ranting for one night....

Sponsored