Honda/Nissan disappointing with Si/Sentra NISMO?

[zx2down]

Hence the Type R. Competition has gone so upscale is performance and pricing that now Honda has had to slot in a new level of Civic to compete. The Si is just middle rung now. I'm waiting to see more on the Si.

That's the issue. Everyone that is competing with the Si is ahead of it. The average person can't afford a car in the 35-40K bracket. They CAN afford a used car that was new in the 23-26K bracket. That is the market that the majority is interested in. It's fine to have a halo car, but you also need a version that actively competes in the bracket that most your buyers will be in. The R and Focus RS bring in people with big eyes, and they leave in Si's and ST's because that's what they can afford.

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[kritz]

ZX2 S/R, Focus SVT, Neon R/T, Neon ACR, Cavalier z24, Sentra SE-R, SE-R Spec.V, Celica GTS, Pontiac Sunfire (with 2.4 option), Impreza 2.5RS... I'm sure I forgot some.

There was lots of direct competition in early 2000's with the Si. Every maker had a car that was just as good as the Si in those times in performance. Honda mostly had on its edge the fact they were very easy to work on, had a larger aftermarket already formed, and very easy to find parts for in comparison to the newer cars that came out to compete with Honda.

I had the first generation SE-R. Fun, fun car. Loved the motor.

 

[Fazzster]

Here is my 2 cents and I mean no disrespect to the thread starter but I constantly see people complaining that 200hp is not enough for the Si. I can't be alone in the thinking that HP is only part of the equation. Ride, handling, and many other factors come together and define the overall performance of the car. When there is harmony, a star is born. Just ask Mazda with their 155 hp Miata. The 10th gen platform is such a solid starting point that my "base" LX 2.0 is keeping me entertained even coming from a 2015 Si. Honestly, the 192ftlb of torque is a solid figure as well depending where in the rev it is made. The new Si just needs to be driven before anyone here can't file a legit complaint against it.

 

[Stock_07]

Here is my 2 cents and I mean no disrespect to the thread starter but I constantly see people complaining that 200hp is not enough for the Si. I can't be alone in the thinking that HP is only part of the equation. Ride, handling, and many other factors come together and define the overall performance of the car. When there is harmony, a star is born. Just ask Mazda with their 155 hp Miata. The 10th gen platform is such a solid starting point that my "base" LX 2.0 is keeping me entertained even coming from a 2015 Si. Honestly, the 192ftlb of torque is a solid figure as well depending where in the rev it is made. The new Si just needs to be driven before anyone here can't file a legit complaint against it.

I am on the other side. I had a 2014 Si and miss that car vs my 2016 lx. I like the design better on the 16 but in terms of the car itself, I wish I could go back and keep my 14.

 

[CIVICSPORT]

I am on the other side. I had a 2014 Si and miss that car vs my 2016 lx. I like the design better on the 16 but in terms of the car itself, I wish I could go back and keep my 14.

I've driven a 2014 Si with a VitViper Tune, and Skunk 2 intake... Holy crap that car was an absolute riot to drive. I've driven a few 16's with the 1.5T, and I could have fallen asleep... no personality... also in saying this I have driven a few cars with a lot more power that were nowhere near as fun as that 2014 Si.

There is more to it all than just numbers

 

[Stock_07]

I've driven a 2014 Si with a VitViper Tune, and Skunk 2 intake... Holy crap that car was an absolute riot to drive. I've driven a few 16's with the 1.5T, and I could have fallen asleep... no personality... also in saying this I have driven a few cars with a lot more power that were nowhere near as fun as that 2014 Si.

There is more to it all than just numbers

In 2014 I was looking at a used mazda speed 3 but the dealer didn't budge on the price so i leased a 14 Si. I actually found the Si more fun vs the ms3. When it comes to the 1.5t I find the cvt is more peppy vs the manual. I know what you mean about the personality part, no sound, no exhaust note and light steering. I am sure the new Si address these things.

 

[dmitri]

... no sound, no exhaust note and light steering. I am sure the new Si address these things.

Boy I really hope they don't do something silly with the sound/exhaust in the stock version... Quietness is one of the attraction points, for me; if someone wants they can easily make it produce any level and type of noise - but it's much harder to go in the other direction, AFAIK... (I know, others' mileage will vary...)

 

[Stock_07]

Boy I really hope they don't do something silly with the sound/exhaust in the stock version... Quietness is one of the attraction points, for me; if someone wants they can easily make it produce any level and type of noise - but it's much harder to go in the other direction, AFAIK... (I know, others' mileage will vary...)

Exhaust sound gives a sporty car character. Honda will not put the fart can muffler on the car or anything near that. Today's exhaust are amazing. If your really sensitive to noise or if even the sport hatch exhaust bothers you might want to stick with a lx, ex or touring.

 

[dmitri]

if even the sport hatch exhaust bothers you might want to stick with a lx, ex or touring.

No the sound isn't going to be a deal breaker - unless it's way out there. I've had no prior experience with the Si so I don't know how intense they usually go with it. Haven't heard the hatch in person, but from a few YouTube clips, it seems to sound just fine; hopefully the Si won't be too far past that. The CTR sound would probably be too much for me, but I'm sure (or at least I'm hoping) that the Si will have noticeably less intensity in comparison.

Anyway, sorry didn't mean to derail...

 

[CIVICSPORT]

No the sound isn't going to be a deal breaker - unless it's way out there. I've had no prior experience with the Si so I don't know how intense they usually go with it. Haven't heard the hatch in person, but from a few YouTube clips, it seems to sound just fine; hopefully the Si won't be too far past that. The CTR sound would probably be too much for me, but I'm sure (or at least I'm hoping) that the Si will have noticeably less intensity in comparison.

Anyway, sorry didn't mean to derail...

The 9th Si had quite the Intake growl. They tuned and designed it to sound like that... exhaust wise it was pretty quiet

 

[dmitri]

Thanks; yeah if the exhaust is quiet, then I'm good. Don't mind the engine sound much, the TSX has some too and it's cool. Really happy Honda never got into that idiotic fad with electronic/induced/fake sound that VW, Subaru and some others did lately, where the sound is artificially channeled into the cabin via a pipe or (worse) the speakers...

 

[Stock_07]

Thanks; yeah if the exhaust is quiet, then I'm good. Don't mind the engine sound much, the TSX has some too and it's cool. Really happy Honda never got into that idiotic fad with electronic/induced/fake sound that VW, Subaru and some others did lately, where the sound is artificially channeled into the cabin via a pipe or (worse) the speakers...

I drove a GTI and its not bad nor would I disconnect it. Some cars that have big drone on start up I found were the 2016 wrx, 2014 2.0t genesis and the 2011 ms3. My 2014 Si had a nice sound with almost no drone.

 

[HMan]

ZX2 S/R, Focus SVT, Neon R/T, Neon ACR, Cavalier z24, Sentra SE-R, SE-R Spec.V, Celica GTS, Pontiac Sunfire (with 2.4 option), Impreza 2.5RS... I'm sure I forgot some.

There was lots of direct competition in early 2000's with the Si. Every maker had a car that was just as good as the Si in those times in performance. Honda mostly had on its edge the fact they were very easy to work on, had a larger aftermarket already formed, and very easy to find parts for in comparison to the newer cars that came out to compete with Honda.

My EP3 was fun as heck to drive.

 

[pukemon]

What really bugs me is that people complained(not specifically here but in general) the NISMO Sentra is just an SR Turbo + NISMO suspension and interior exterior pkg, and it sounds like the Si will mostly be the same but will have LSD and 2hp/tq more than the NISMO. (based on rumor the Si just uses a CR-V 1.5T)

For me, these two cars are just not holding up to what was expected, and are arriving very late to the game. Many people expected a good Focus/Fiesta ST competitor, and the ST's are due for a refresh shortly. The GTI, GLI, ST seem to be leaving their Japanese competition behind right now, and with the two not even in the market yet potential buyers are more and more likely to just give up for a VW or Ford selling under MSRP instead of waiting(and have an established aftermarket), to just pay for a car with a markup(and have to wait for aftermarket to catch up to the new gen).

I get that they want the Type-R to be their king of the hill, but with it supposed to be 300+HP, I am not understanding why they are(possibly) releasing cars that make under 200HP, when their direct competition is making 210-250HP and 250-270TQ, not counting the OEM provided tunes/packages that can give more on top of that.

I get that the Si is more about a fun to drive than power, a "drivers car", but those are also fitting the same market. I can see that some people see the GTI as a bit pricey, or the ST as a bit aggressively styled, but I don't see that as a reason for the Si to not deliver at least similar levels of factory performance to them.

Opinions?

unfortunately, the civic is still a civic. always has been and more than likely always will be. honda is trying to appease a more general audience but at the same time they also don't want to lose their ass. they are known for reliability. there are very few people from the toyota/honda camp complaining about major problems. like my corolla/camry/civic/accord didn't get me from point a to b. the biggest complaints have been boring, audio, underpowered etc. but you still got where you were going? i started a fun thread because i dumped honda for a vw gti autobahn because i was impatient with the lack of info and came home the same night from my purchase to hear my fears came true. less than 200tq. but i got a much better equipped car. for the same price as a SI, you still get more in a vw golf s, sport and SE but you also gamble on reliability. i took a bigger gamble getting the top of the line GTI with an autobahn edition, the only 2017 golf equipped with the DCC, dynamic chassis control. last year you could get that in a SE. but i also paid about $7000 more for that feature among others including much better stereo system than my '14 SI, much much better suspension even without the DCC, lots of other convenience features i could give a rats ass about like nav, leather seats, assisted cruise control and more. i even sacrificed the color i wanted, white or blue for a silver autobahn. what can i say? the s, sport and SE are comparably priced and actually lower than the SI or sport touring because VW took a big hit to their brand with the diesel scandal. otherwise people would be paying just slight of SI prices for entry into a VW golf. think of how bored the toyota owners are. you gotta get a lexus to get anything exciting but then we are talking A LOT MORE options when you spend that money. the 200SX/Sentra R's back in the day were hella fun. that suspension. nissan is pretty reliable engine wise but gimps on interior quality. i wouldn't go bashing nissan. there might be a lot of fun to be had in the NISMO sentra. i don't know the price, nor do i care. i jumped on the german bandwagon for awhile. just gotta hope my car didn't get overengineered and has nagging little problems here and there. not too worried about the engine. it's been around awhile and proven. it's all the other little stuff, especially if electronics are involved that might bite me in the ass. i sacrificed reliability for a little more fun. hell you never know. i might be back here whining about deutsche cars being douches. honda is also about safety. BIGTIME. you do realize many people can't realistically drive a 200hp/200tq car. for god's sake, look at prius drivers. hell, almost most toyota drivers can't drive. got the dashcam videos to prove it. also, the more power you throw at something the more can go wrong. just look on youtube. probably more si video crashes than regular civics. i also just paid $7000 more for my VW golf autobahn with 220hp/258tq and my insurance went down a couple hundred bucks. hmmmmm....

 

[LoveToDrive]

Here is my 2 cents and I mean no disrespect to the thread starter but I constantly see people complaining that 200hp is not enough for the Si. I can't be alone in the thinking that HP is only part of the equation. Ride, handling, and many other factors come together and define the overall performance of the car. When there is harmony, a star is born. Just ask Mazda with their 155 hp Miata. The 10th gen platform is such a solid starting point that my "base" LX 2.0 is keeping me entertained even coming from a 2015 Si. Honestly, the 192ftlb of torque is a solid figure as well depending where in the rev it is made. The new Si just needs to be driven before anyone here can't file a legit complaint against it.

That's me, exactly.

And, I agree with the rest. This back-and-forth is happening because everyone is judging the Si from different perspectives. Some are looking at it from "competition and market" POV, where as others are looking from "what is sufficient and competent for me" POV. When a variety of cars are available for different people, everybody wins.

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