2017 Civic Type R puts down 295WHP bone stock on the dyno

[Wheel_Guy]

It's wrong. You can't do the mat in reverse without accounting for it. You multiply by the same factor that you divide by and that is always starting at the crank numbers.

350 x .85 = 297.5 at the wheels

297.5 / .85 = 350

I think 15% is too high. Honda would have worked hard on this car to MINIMIZE drive-train losses so I imagine the crank HP is nowhere near 350 but I would not be surprised at ALL if the car was underrated. All the reviewers remark how it feels faster than 306 hp and comment on how efficient it must be getting the power down.

Either way, it is the power at the wheels that matter. If Honda is right and it only has 306 hp at the crank and still 295 at the wheels, then their engineers are BAD ASS. If it is underrated and pumps out 325hp at the crank, then I'm stoked either way!

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[procivic]

Some guys in PR strapped a 100 miles CTR on a dyno and the car is underrated as suspected.

For reference that dyno reads a stock SI 8th gen between 160s to 170s. Depends on the year. Later years put down more stock.
A stock EVOX reads ~250whp
A stock Ralliart Turbo reads ~190whp.


In other words in that particular shop I was expecting around 270whp on a stock CTR. 295 is way too much over my estimates.

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The stock 8th Gen Si figure is best evidence mentioned so far in this thread that would indicate the Type R is underrated. Each dyno is different, so having this information is key to understanding the drivetrain loss of this particular dyno for an FWD vehicle. Thanks for posting. Seems like the CTR is even more beastly than expected!

 

[Wheel_Guy]

I was reading that Honda puts the lowest number output expected as it HP number, so 306 at the crank on 87. Not sure how accurate that statement, but it would make some sense.

This would make a lot of sense.

 

[UberCivic]

I think 15% is too high. Honda would have worked hard on this car to MINIMIZE drive-train losses so I imagine the crank HP is nowhere near 350 but I would not be surprised at ALL if the car was underrated. All the reviewers remark how it feels faster than 306 hp and comment on how efficient it must be getting the power down.

Either way, it is the power at the wheels that matter. If Honda is right and it only has 306 hp at the crank and still 295 at the wheels, then their engineers are BAD ASS. If it is underrated and pumps out 325hp at the crank, then I'm stoked either way!

Yeah, the 15% is just someone elses made up number as is the 350. I was just demonstrating how to correctly do the math, but you need to know two of the three variables to actually get the right numbers. Anything that we are doing is an assumption. If we assume that 295 to the wheels is real and 12% loss is real then we get 335bhp. If we assume 295 is right and 306 is the bhp then we get 3.6% drivetrain loss. You can go all day with different assumptions and get different results.

 

[Wheel_Guy]

Yeah, the 15% is just someone elses made up number as is the 350. I was just demonstrating how to correctly do the math, but you need to know two of the three variables to actually get the right numbers anything that we are doing is an assumption. If we assume that 295 to the wheels is real and 12% loss is real then we get 335bhp. If we assume 295 is right and 306 is the bhp then we get 3.6% drivetrain loss. You can go all day with different assumptions and get different results.

Agreed. I imagine it is less than 15% but higher than 5% so 10% is probably a reasonable estimate but that is really just a guess too. Either way it sounds like the CTR has more power than we realized. If 295 at the wheels is accurate, that's pretty sweet.

 

[Psy-q]

I measured the opposite way, so I was wrong. But I would have figured that you start at the flywheel, yes it is unknown right now. But isn't losses measured from the higher number, then you subtract the losses. But if you have gains, you start at the lower number?
so lets say you had 350 at the FW, 15% loss
350 x .85 = 297.5 at the wheels
but if you start at the known:
297.5 x 1.15 = 342.125
So two different numbers, so we would go with the most conservative one?

Wrong math:

340/1.15 = 295

295 x 1.15 = 295

Same numbers.

15% subtracted from 340 is greater than 15% added to 295. Its percentages of a number, not fixed add/remove number.


Underrating has been part of the Automotive industry for a very long time. It is just new to Honda because of Turbo engines.

Car manufacturers do it to show HP at high altitude/ bad gas/ very hot weather/ worst possible conditions HP.

 

[Joescivic]

I want to see this car up against some muscle cars on a straight away. I know I know it's more about handling but I want to see some drag racing

The Type R loses to an eg hatch with a "stock" k20 swap. And by like a bus length too. I'm sure even a new 5.0 Mustang would beat that eg, so the Type R will have no chance. And I ain't hating either. Lol

 

[dallasjhawk]

The Type R loses to an eg hatch with a "stock" k20 swap. And by like a bus length too. I'm sure even a new 5.0 Mustang would beat that eg, so the Type R will have no chance. And I ain't hating either. Lol

Stock is joke, that thing is gutted with intake exhaust and who knows what else. Second, that Type R didnt even look like it was trying or going so whatever.

 

[LTurbo2016]

I'd like to see what it can pull on a mustang dyno.

i know a guy who just put it on a mustang Dyno and said 265. thats all i heard.

 

[Joescivic]

Stock is joke, that thing is gutted with intake exhaust and who knows what else. Second, that Type R didnt even look like it was trying or going so whatever.

That's why I said "stock" with quotes. Lol. But he was referring to the motor being stock, not the car. I wouldn't even doubt my full interior 00 coupe with a k20. Maybe whenever my Type R arrives, I may run against the coupe.

 

[VitViper]

Wrong math:

340/1.15 = 295

295 x 1.15 = 295

Same numbers.

Quoting drivetrain loss as a percent value is just wrong math inherently. It doesn't take "15%" to turn your drivetrain (flywheel->clutch->pressure plate->transmission->axles->hubs->wheels). It's more accurately represented as a fixed value. 15-25hp on most FWD cars from what I've seen.

Why do I say this?

Say you have a car, that is "rated" 300hp. Dynos 275hp. 25hp loss -> that comes out to be roughly 8% right? Now say I modify the car and now it dynos 400hp. Is the drivetrain loss still 8%? If it's 8% that means now my drivetrain loss is 36hp? The drivetrain magically takes 11 more hp to turn? The drivetrain hasn't changed...

 

[CTR1633FK2]

I don't think it's that simple. The more you stress the drivetrain, the more the friction will increase. So, I don't think it's fixed value (the losses). I don't think it's linear either.

 

[Boostlag]

The Type R loses to an eg hatch with a "stock" k20 swap. And by like a bus length too. I'm sure even a new 5.0 Mustang would beat that eg, so the Type R will have no chance. And I ain't hating either. Lol

stock? a tuned k20 can make 240whp. Built one will make close to 300whp. In a hatchcrap that weights nearly 2000lbs gutted. Yeh it'll be faster. It sure doesn't have comfort mode, power steering, air conditioning, or a sterero. you'll likely die in a EG hatch in a crash with that early 90's crash protection.

 

[UFO CTR]

I don't think it's that simple. The more you stress the drivetrain, the more the friction will increase. So, I don't think it's fixed value (the losses). I don't think it's linear either.

yea, probably not a straight curve...

 

[Joescivic]

stock? a tuned k20 can make 240whp. Built one will make close to 300whp. In a hatchcrap that weights nearly 2000lbs gutted. Yeh it'll be faster. It sure doesn't have comfort mode, power steering, air conditioning, or a sterero. you'll likely die in a EG hatch in a crash with that early 90's crash protection.

You're not understanding me. And 240whp? Must be a very generous dyno. Most bolt on k20's with a tune make 220-230whp on most dynojets. Some even below 220whp. My 00 coupe is still confortable. I don't care about power steering. Being able to feel the road is a lot better in my opinion. Just a full interior 00 coupe (2500lbs) beating 300whp cars...lol. Oh and these swaps can certainly have A/C and powersteering. How you know there's no stereo in the video? Haha. Anyways...just saying it happens

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