Hype R or Type R?

Vtak Groceries

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once the price comes down on those I'll get one, much less maintenance and better performance for city driving. they just need better range.
When the price comes down you will also have to buy new battery's if you want the same range and power as brand new.
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When the price comes down you will also have to buy new battery's if you want the same range and power as brand new.
the batteries actually degrade after a few years of use or even during cold weather. .. but they will get better with time I'm sure. I wouldnt buy a used one, but the price will come down as competition heats up, also the model 3 is around the corner. bolt is already here. lol
 

Browncoat3000

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When the price comes down you will also have to buy new battery's if you want the same range and power as brand new.
That's not exactly how it works, as the battery price factors into the price of the car.

Electric vehicles don't depreciate along the same lines as conventional cars for the simple reason that they don't wear out nearly as fast as a conventional car. There was a Honda Accord that went 1 million miles. I wouldn't be surprised if we see multi-generational Teslas going ten times that.
 

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That's not exactly how it works, as the battery price factors into the price of the car.

Electric vehicles don't depreciate along the same lines as conventional cars for the simple reason that they don't wear out nearly as fast as a conventional car. There was a Honda Accord that went 1 million miles. I wouldn't be surprised if we see multi-generational Teslas going ten times that.
Electric cars are the future but Tesla cars are loaded with problems. Check consumer reports
 


Browncoat3000

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Also as for Drag times the current Civic Type R is high 13s to low 14s at 105-106MPH. All the AWD and RWD competition in the price category is minimum low 13s. I do believe the CTR will be the slowest 1/4 mile performance car for the price you can buy when it comes out, but it should be the fastest FWD car ever.

If you are a diehard Honda enthusiasts or a FWD enthusiast the CTR will be the perfect car. For the rest of the population however I dont see many reasons to buy a CTR over the competition. Sure Honda reliability is great, but again, cars have something called warranty. We will see how it is when released at Geneva.
Mmm yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

Unless Honda's folks have mislead us on the actual performance numbers of the CTR and Si, then they have established some very clear bench-marks the new cars will have to beat.

To be the Fastest Si, that Si will have to be better than 6.0, to beat the fastest CTR it's got to be less than 5.0 (4.9); granted the current CTR is more about curves than drags, but those are the bars Honda set.

That's why I've said that the CTR will be a sub-5 car, barely, and I'm pretty sure the Si will be mid 5's.
 

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Electric cars are the future but Tesla cars are loaded with problems. Check consumer reports
Yes, but here's the thing, if a Camry's timing chain breaks, that's the end of the Camry, the engine is most likely scrap, and given the depreciation, the car is also likely scrap (actually happened to my mother).

If a Tesla's motor fails, you plug in a new one and away you go; take the old one, re-wrap the armature or stator, and you are back in business. Same goes for most of the car, its modular and solid state.

The Tesla's aluminum, Kevlar, and carbon fiber frame and body work will likely survive most anything this side of an RPG and won't wear out. So, at the 1 million mile mark, the Tesla's will look like new, but the equivalent Honda will be showing its age.
 

Vtak Groceries

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Mmm yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

Unless Honda's folks have mislead us on the actual performance numbers of the CTR and Si, then they have established some very clear bench-marks the new cars will have to beat.

To be the Fastest Si, that Si will have to be better than 6.0, to beat the fastest CTR it's got to be less than 5.0 (4.9); granted the current CTR is more about curves than drags, but those are the bars Honda set.

That's why I've said that the CTR will be a sub-5 car, barely, and I'm pretty sure the Si will be mid 5's.

Do you even realize the current CTR can only hit a 5.7sec from 0-62mph.... You are delusional and obviously know very little about performance cars AT ALL.... A CTR will never hit the numbers you are saying unless it comes with drag slicks from the factory lol. How the hell can the new Civic Si hit mid 5s to 60mph. Thats faster than the 305hp CTR using only a 1.5T engine and ~215hp lol...... Man this is why I dont own a Honda any more...

Also dont get my started on your Tesla comparison.
 

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Nice presentation, thanks.
1. I think quarter mile is one side of the story, culturally important in North America. But in Europe afaik we value more handling, cornering stability/ability, nimbleness. Also myself I prefer to trade some crazy power figure in a car against minimum body roll, precise steering input, controllable, with good stopping power. I live next to Germany I can go on unlimited speed parts of Autobahn but going fast on straight line is boring and dangerous. For me has more appeal going on a twisted road. Also for 99% of the drivers(me included) 300hp+ is more than they can handle. Not a far ago these were figures for race cars. Cars evolved but average driver skills not.
2. This car will be usually a daily driver (4 seats, trunk space). Not many(me included) will track it (Ring,Spa,Hockenheim are not far from me) for various reasons: not destroying, wearing it, tracking costs.
3. I don't consider Subaru personally given the average at best reliability. Ok you have a warranty but being left stranded somewhere, wasting time, having your scheduled impacted, all this discomfort is not getting compensated by it.
Golf R won't consider not even for free. Is a bland car, full of it here in Europe. They look the same since few generations, forgettable.
4. Electric car makers need to do their homework better. I am not going to do testing for them on my time/money. When the tech is mature enough I'll consider. About the long term reliability I am wondering: how will the(few) mechanical components(axles,brakes,chassis) do given that car is notably heavier. How is handling affected? Not going to be as nimble as on a sub 2 tons car. Also most the articles about electric cars go after the sensational: "Tesla outpaced Ferrari on drag strip". But they forget to say that after few full accelerations the battery will be drained.
5. I would like to see from the electric makers what is the TOTAL cost(energy,environment pollution/emissions) of producing/disposing components for the electric car. Batteries use rare elements that are expensive to produce, they impact the environments where they are getting mined/refined. How feasible is to produce such batteries at global scale? Once used battery elements can not get recycled.
 

Browncoat3000

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Nice presentation, thanks.
5. I would like to see from the electric makers what is the TOTAL cost(energy,environment pollution/emissions) of producing/disposing components for the electric car. Batteries use rare elements that are expensive to produce, they impact the environments where they are getting mined/refined. How feasible is to produce such batteries at global scale? Once used battery elements can not get recycled.
Tesla is currently working toward making their battery 100% recyclable. Currently stands at 60%.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...eslas-european-electric-car-battery-recycling

You have a valid point about total carbon emissions, which is a huge hidden cost for all cars. Tesla is actively working on it, as is Honda.

Personally, I think Honda's FCV program has greater green potential simply because I don't see a way around the time required to charge a vehicle battery. That won't be a barrier to many folks in the city, but it will be a problem for the rest of the planet.
 


Browncoat3000

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Do you even realize the current CTR can only hit a 5.7sec from 0-62mph.... You are delusional and obviously know very little about performance cars AT ALL.... A CTR will never hit the numbers you are saying unless it comes with drag slicks from the factory lol. How the hell can the new Civic Si hit mid 5s to 60mph. Thats faster than the 305hp CTR using only a 1.5T engine and ~215hp lol...... Man this is why I dont own a Honda any more...

Also dont get my started on your Tesla comparison.
I'm well aware of the market. I'm not sure you are.

The fastest CTR is the '07 Rally, 4.9-5.5 depending on the source. It's true the current CTR is slower, but that's irrelevant given Honda's stated intention of producing the fastest CTR ever and recapturing the Ring.

VW's Golf-r is a 5 second car, which is the closest I could find to the current Ring champ version. Splitting the difference between the GTI gives a 5.3 for the current Ring champ. Honda's CTR is going to be in this neighborhood if it's to recapture the ring, it's simple physics there.

In the USDM, CTR is going to face off against the WRX (5.0 sec) and the top Focus models. The Si will also face the lesser Focus, Subies, Twins, the Fiesta, Golf, and Mini. That's a packed field.

The fastest Si, the '06, was a 6.0 car instrumented C&D. VW, Subaru, and Mini, all have versions that run 5.7-6.4 without having AWD. The Si is going to have to run with this pack.

So if the Si has to be sub-6, then it's bigger brother needs to be close to 5 or it isn't simply isn't worth the 10K difference. Similarly, it needs that speed to out shine its field and retake the Ring. If the 4.9 sec CTR Rally number is correct, then the new CTR needs to best that. Even if we split the difference and say it ran 5.3, that still puts the CTR in the 5.0 region, squarely in the zone where it needs to be if it's going to hit its other benchmarks and outshine its competitors.

Perhaps you are right, these cars won't do any of these things. If so, then a whole bunch of Honda's people have been misleading us for a long time. Clearly you aren't a Honda fan, I can respect that if you don't act like a troll. If you objectively look at the current GenX's numbers and reviews, this car punches well above its weight and resets the bar on almost every front. Why would we expect less of the model's flagships?
 
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I'm well aware of the market. I'm not sure you are.

The fastest CTR is the '07 Rally, 4.9-5.5 depending on the source. It's true the current CTR is slower, but that's irrelevant given Honda's stated intention of producing the fastest CTR ever and recapturing the Ring.

VW's Golf-r is a 5 second car, which is the closest I could find to the current Ring champ version. Splitting the difference between the GTI gives a 5.3 for the current Ring champ. Honda's CTR is going to be in this neighborhood if it's to recapture the ring, it's simple physics there.

In the USDM, CTR is going to face off against the WRX (5.0 sec) and the top Focus models. The Si will also face the lesser Focus, Subies, Twins, the Fiesta, Golf, and Mini. That's a packed field.

The fastest Si, the '06, was a 6.0 car instrumented C&D. VW, Subaru, and Mini, all have versions that run 5.7-6.4 without having AWD. The Si is going to have to run with this pack.

So if the Si has to be sub-6, then it's bigger brother needs to be close to 5 or it isn't simply isn't worth the 10K difference. Similarly, it needs that speed to out shine its field and retake the Ring. If the 4.9 sec CTR Rally number is correct, then the new CTR needs to best that. Even if we split the difference and say it ran 5.3, that still puts the CTR in the 5.0 region, squarely in the zone where it needs to be if it's going to hit its other benchmarks and outshine its competitors.

Perhaps you are right, these cars won't do any of these things. If so, then a whole bunch of Honda's people have been misleading us for a long time. Clearly you aren't a Honda fan, I can respect that if you don't act like a troll. If you objectively look at the current GenX's numbers and reviews, this car punches well above its weight and resets the bar on almost every front. Why would we expect less of the model's flagships?

I agree with you on this. I've seen guys claim 5.3-5.1 0-60 in uk type r forums. The biggest issue seems to be the tires as the current ctr will spin through 3rd gear. If Honda put some a more aggressive tire with the supposed increase in hp from current ctr, a sub 5 sec 0-60 with a good driver isn't far fetched. Add Hondata traction control and the possibility is even greater.
 

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@Browncoat3000
"Why would we expect less of the model's flagships?"
Because its front wheel drive, it's physics. 0 to 60 times are more deceiving and useless for FWD cars then any other drivetrain configuration. The FK2 will do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds but finish a quarter mile at 106 mph. Car & Driver got the Golf R & Focus RS to 60 in 5.1 and 4.7 seconds respectably... But they both trapped the 1/4 mile a mph slower then the Civic (105). So the AWD cars are quicker (to 60 mph), obviously, because they're distributing that 300+ pound feet of torque more efficiently through all four wheels. The Civic is faster because once the variable of traction is eliminated, it has the superior power to weight ratio. This doesn't even account for the fact that these numbers are obtained by professional drivers, on closed courses, in optimal conditions, with press cars that they savagely launch around a dozen times to reach. Conclusion? If you're a bench-racer that needs a stat sheet to validate a 40k purchase (thats's human nature I guess), go with the competition. If you want the faster car? Buy the Civic.
 

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@staylurkn what I said was that I expect the CTR and Si to punch above their weight in performance. I don't disagree that 0-60 isn't necessarily indicative of how well the car performs. The 8th gen Si had a much better 0-60 than the 9th, but the 9th is a much better driving car.

Having said that, my predictions are simply not out of line. You and others show a lot of pessimism about FWD that fails to take in account numerous advances in drive-train tech over just the last few years, and the EXTREMELY clever reinvigorated engineers at Honda that gave us a stock Civic that out-runs the old Si with 25 less HP.

Consider this progression:

'06 Chevy Impala SS, that 4000 pound lumbering beast with 303HP, runs 0-60 in 5.5 with a crappy automatic.

Honda's own 2016 Accord Coupe v6 m/t: 0-60 5.6 on Honda's stock tires. It has 278hp, but is 500 pounds heavier than the Civic Coupe at about 3400 pounds, and can't be said to be engineered as a performance car in the same way the Si or CTR will be. In other words, this is Honda not even trying.

The SEAT Leon: 5.5 seconds to 100kph (62mph).

The current FWD champ: VW's 2017 Sirocco-R, 261HP, 3100 pounds, Car and Driver tested model ran 5.2 and keeps the Golf's marvelous handling.

Along comes the new CTR, with 330-ish HP, and weighing somewhat close to 3100#. Is a 5-ish prediction really off the mark?

How about the Si? With 225-ish HP, and an out-of-shape older brother that can run 5.6, is mid-5's really unreasonable when Honda said it would be the fastest Si yet?

Honda Civic 10th gen Hype R or Type R? xkcd
 
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Evo

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The US type r will be the heaviest ever, probably about 3300.
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